This post stemmed from an ongoing discussion on Twitter, that started with the story of Dina, in last weeks Torah reading, who was raped by Shechem. I had heard a comment from a young person that was taught that Dina was raped because she wasn’t tznius (modest). I was outraged that they would teach the kids this in school and not expand on it, or explain than there is never a justification for rape. A couple of my twitterati have been duking it out for a few days already. Today’s back and forth just put me over the top. So I put this update on my FanPage.
“so ticked off. some men feel that women are at fault for sexual crimes committed against them, because they did not dress modestly. Why can these opinionated men not take personal responsibility for how they react and control themselves? Why blame the victim?!”
These were the responses, from both women and men.
ESP Say it loud and proud sistah!
LS wouldn’t you be at least a tiny bit upset at the person who placed a freshly baked chocolate chip cookie in front of your nose when you were on a diet????? yes, you ought to control yourself, but temptation makes it that much harder. and if it’s not for sale, don’t advertise!!
CED Men can’t control themselves, you know that Hadassah. 😉 its amazing they can even get themselves out of the house in the morning.
LS nah, not so fast, CED. women are more susceptible to being controlled by their emotions.
AH no excuse for violating someone. blame [it] on them, the word victim has a [meaning]. jerks and cowards place blame on others for their own actions.
LS no good reasons, but plenty of excuses.
CED I was being fasecious LS. There is one thing to be emotional, quite another to physically attack someone.
CFK A man having such an attitude is sick, but a woman having that attitude? Well, I don’t even know what to say. Yes, men are human, but the last time I checked they were capable of self control just like us women. There is NEVER an excuse for sexual abuse. Period.
SJ these kind of men are not men they are PIGS!
DS The issue is not blame but degree of culpability. No one should ever be violated, no one should ever be attacked. But when certain groups try to cast all sexual misconduct with equal culpability, disappointing and wrong result ensue. Simply put, date rape is not the same as the rape of a stranger. Date rape lacks the extreme violence and usually the threat of life and limb that generally accompanies traditional rape. Date rape is a horrible act; a crime. But is it really just to punish a college student who, in the heat of lustful passion, when he was not thinking clearly, thought “no” didn’t really meant “NO G-d damnit!!!” the same way we would punish a predator who accosted a complete stranger, brutalized her, attacked her and violated her in the most profound and intimate way? There is a difference. Yet certain legal activists seek to equate the two. And yes in the date rape situation, there could be a mitigating factor of the victim seemingly giving off a signal that she wants sex, and some confused guy giving it to he, despite her protestations to the contrary. It’s a blurry line between rape and consent.
CAT a) There’s no excuse
b) It is the man’s responsibility to not rape a woman, never the woman’s. If he’s going to have sex with her, he should make damn sure that she *wants* to have sex. If there’s any doubt, the guy should keep it in his pants – drugs or alcohol are no excuse.
c) Women don’t give off ‘signals’ that over-ride a verbal “No”
I figured we could continue the discussion over here.
Please be respectful in the comments even if you disagree.